Open-Handed vs. Textbook Fills

[Kirstin]

Hi.  Any other open handers feel like textbook fills--such as the old school 16th notes around the kit--go a bit against the grain with this style? I am wondering if this is just me.

[Mark]

Kristin, 

Can you explain a bit more what you are referring to? I am a bit lost, pardon my ignorance.

 

Mark

[Kirstin]

No, no problem.  I'm not describing it well and probably will likely continue to fail at describing what I mean in this post.

I'll just stick to the old school 16th note fill around the horn as some drummers describe it.  Going from left to right, from smallest tom to largest, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, etc. Maybe linear fills is the right term for this? Like Bonham triplets and etc. I'm new to the world of drum terminology.

I don't see a lot of open handed drummers using fills like this or other traditional fills that are usually top 5 in the text books. Or they very rarely do it. They tend to bounce around, hit multiple drums at once and whatnot. I didn't even notice this until a pro open-hander said something about how open handed playing gets you away from these types of fills. Then I started watching closer.

Then next time I got on the kit to work on fills, I noticed that if I am going from the gut, I tend to tumble around a bit too, such as snare-floor-snare-10", one drum might get a single hit, another might get a double and I'm usually combining the bass drum on or off the grid.  When I do traditional fills like the one described in the first paragraph it feels 'wrong?' Or like a wasted opportunity?  I don't know what. I wondered if I had picked up a bias from that pro open hander or if there is something inherent in the playstyle that leads your gut towards a different sort of fill. 

If you still don't understand, that is all on me. It probably answers my question that it is only me feeling this way. LOL.

[David]

I think depending on the direction of travel round the kit the sticking should change, so if you are going left to right and doing even 16th notes the RLRL stick makes sense and the reverse would be true going the other way.  I think this is ground work for the more lyrical/expressive fills you are talking about.  On She Said She Said by the Beatles Ringo demonstrates how to break up fills in a musical way, nothing fancy just a great sounding drumming.  

I think practicing on a pad starting with one hand and then the other to practice the transition smoothly both ways and then transitioning to the kit works for me.  Also I do groups of 8th, 16th, and triplets bars to practice transitioning helps.  I do try to do it dynamically soft to loud etc.  The challenge is to reverse the direction coming back up the toms 🙂  I think the pros are so past playing the basic 16th note fills pattern we use to practice... the big show-offs 🙂 

As for wasted chance's, I think it depends where you are on your drumming/musical journey. As you've played other instruments your appreciation of time is different to mine, I'm working on my internal clock after playing live for many years but never understanding time the way I do now, after working through Stephen's courses.

Edited December 29, 2022 by David

[Mark]

Kirstin,

I am very much an amateur, but I have noticed that I can be more creative with open handed drumming and maybe those ‘traditional’ fills don’t come out. I think that might be what you are getting at. At this point in my journey I am purposely NOT trying to emulate any drummer and I am just seeing what comes out on my own. Later on I will be more intentional and get ideas from the ‘greats.’ I have too many foundational skills to work on at this point.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Mark

[Kirstin]

1 hour ago, David said:

I think this is ground work for the more lyrical/expressive fills you are talking about.  On She Said She Said by the Beatles Ringo demonstrates how to break up fills in a musical way, nothing fancy just a great sounding drumming.  

AHA!  Thank you, sir!  You've provided me just the words I was looking for. Yes. Fills broken up in a musical way. That is exactly what I was trying to describe as the version of fill I am most drawn to along with back beat fills. I am besotted with back beat fills. What you say tells me that what the open-handed drummer said about the style and fills isn't actually true. It's an individualistic thing. I'm apparently just not inclined towards liking those old fills. I still practice them in all directions around the kit even if they make me cringe.

And because you brought up Ringo, this is exactly why I avoid him like the plague for the moment. He's my drum dad and I love his style but for <reasons> I am pushing myself to draw in other influences first. I'll come back to him when I'm burdened with some learning and my own sense of me. Like him I was born lefty and forced converted to my right hand, but by the my mid 20s I no longer had any sense of a dominant hand and can write equally bad with both hands and lead left or right. From his stories he still had a strong connection to his left hand when he started out.  

I also work on intervals like you said you do. They are fundamental for time keeping on all instruments. Want to hear something crazy? I have a rock solid sense of tempo from my other musical endeavors, but put a metronome anywhere in hearing and I go to pieces. Tempo.exe crashes to desktop and I stop being able to feel anything. I'm working on it LOL. 

Thank you ever so much for your answer.  
 

[Kirstin]

12 minutes ago, Mark said:

At this point in my journey I am purposely NOT trying to emulate any drummer and I am just seeing what comes out on my own. Later on I will be more intentional and get ideas from the ‘greats.’ I have too many foundational skills to work on at this point.

Nothing wrong with that.  I went through this phase myself the first 5 months. Now I'm in the phase of avoiding drummers I share the most in common with and going after the ones with standout qualities I can't do but am absolutely fascinated with. I also have mountains of fundamentals to work through. I only know 4 rudiments at this point and my doubles and flams are not great.

I do agree that playing open handed does provoke me into some odd but creative phrases. And sometimes I knock a stick out of my hand hehe.

[David]

7 hours ago, Kirstin said:

AHA!  Thank you, sir!  You've provided me just the words I was looking for. Yes. Fills broken up in a musical way. That is exactly what I was trying to describe as the version of fill I am most drawn to along with back beat fills.

Ok, so I'd say then you are looking at 2 primary things imho;

1. The technical setup and tool box open-handed playing brings you, great for opening up the kit. I think mechanically open-handed playing opens the kit up in a much better way and make total sense, especially if you are starting out.
2. Musical and lyrical playing which I don't think is related to technique but is certainly assisted by technique. When I listen to Elvin Jones, Vinnie Colaiuta, Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford, Simon Phillips, Joe Morello etc: I love the unique feel and musicality they bring, they have such a creative mindset which is supported by technique.  

For me I'm trying to include elements of OHP as I'm too old and being playing too long to change now, it would bring me to a halt doing what I love doing which is playing live when I get the chance. It's another tool in the box.  Other tools I'm trying to build up are brush playing, playing with my hands and not sticks, playing with different things in each hand etc all this adds to tonality and musicality.  

This is a track that, for me, illustrates the kind of musical freedom I'd love to achieve rather than just the break down of 4/4, 3/4 and 2/4 measures I need to do to get through it.  Technically I'm no where near this but I should be able to get through it in my own way at some point, I've only just learned to read and count properly and realise now how this would have been good to do 40 years ago when I started.  

Sorry I've gone on, interesting how this subject makes you think about creativity as well as technique, developing the creative aspect and your own voice is equally as important as technique I think, like language... you collect words but with on context they are just words.  

[Kirstin]

3 hours ago, David said:

Ok, so I'd say then you are looking at 2 primary things imho;

1. The technical setup and tool box open-handed playing brings you, great for opening up the kit. I think mechanically open-handed playing opens the kit up in a much better way and make total sense, especially if you are starting out.
2. Musical and lyrical playing which I don't think is related to technique but is certainly assisted by technique. When I listen to Elvin Jones, Vinnie Colaiuta, Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford, Simon Phillips, Joe Morello etc: I love the unique feel and musicality they bring, they have such a creative mindset which is supported by technique.  

For me I'm trying to include elements of OHP as I'm too old and being playing too long to change now, it would bring me to a halt doing what I love doing which is playing live when I get the chance. It's another tool in the box.  Other tools I'm trying to build up are brush playing, playing with my hands and not sticks, playing with different things in each hand etc all this adds to tonality and musicality.  

Don't apologize for going on. I'm here listening and learning and you say a lot that makes sense. You are also sharing you goals which gets that out in the open where you can think about what you are after, and you are also sharing what makes you happy. It's great to nerd out about what you love with other nerds in the same track. This is also my first time really interacting with other drummers since I started. I've pretty much been going it alone.

I absolutely agree with you, especially on point 2. I am weak on fundamentals, therefore I spend a lot of time on them with reward systems in place to encourage me to stay focused. I know the rudiments, intervals, and independence/interdependence will open the kit up for me.

You have a good and very achievable goal. You shouldn't have to change what you've been doing because OHP is thing that every drummer does a lot of already. Before the hi-hat, everyone was OH, and after the hi-hat everyone was still mostly OH because time was kept primarily on the ride. I'm positive you will get where you are trying to go.