Kirstin

When I first saw Harry Miree a couple years ago, it hit me how his drum layout is very close to Holland's. He started slowly rearranging his kit shortly after moving to Tennessee. I've always assumed that Holland was one of his key inspirations for doing that.

P.S.  Nod to Holland playing for Carl Perkins too.  I have a couple old Carl Perkins albums that Mom had collected way back.

Put Your Cat Clothes On!

Oh and here is Holland backing Carl.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s8mQekpakQ

2 hours ago, Christine said:

Any cymbal will crash if you hit it hard enough 😉

Yes, they will.

I'm feeling remarkably at one with the universe today. 2023 must have finally let me get my hooks in for the ride. Still playing open handed though...

15 hours ago, David said:

I have crashes on both sides so I use either hand when I splash, smash or crash.  It is natural now but you do need get used to it so I used to practice to Mr Copelands explosive accented fills.  On some eKits you can crash the ride but I think t requires a 3 zone cymbal.  I don't think it matter which hand is on what as long as it works.

Right.  I tend to forget that not all e-rides have 3 zones like mine did.  Did.  In the past.  Now I have none. 😞 But I have 12 to 14 weeks to work on rudiments! 🥁

There's the key right there. Finding what works. Every day I practice has some exploration built into it. I do what the instructor says to do first, and get that down. Then I explore different ways to accomplish the same thing. Then I make variations around the kit with it.

5 hours ago, Eyal said:

The biggest adjustment to make when switching to open-handed drumming is that you need to lead most grooves and fills with your left hand. This may take a while to get used to, but it’s the best way of catering to keeping your left hand on the hi-hat for grooves.

If you lead with your right hand on a fill, you’ll end up playing your left hand twice in a row after crashing, and that won’t be possible at high speeds.

The rest of the article is solid, but I admit, this part confuses the heck out of me too. I've worked it all sorts of ways in my head and can't make sense of this. It also contradicts what he says in paragraph two of  "What is open handed drumming." I think he may have got himself turned around here and didn't catch it in editing. 
 

5 hours ago, Eyal said:

Does it mean I need to remember per fill how to start it?

Do you have problems when it comes to jamming and improvising a fill?

I admit that my two hand fills are small and fit a pretty strict formula for the moment. Compared to other aspects of drumming, I'm still relatively new to fills, but I'm already being very mindful of what works vs what doesn't. I think about ways to do these short chunk fills properly or I think up ways to tailor these short chunk fills to me. When I get those down, I'll start increasing the size of the fills and the number of drums involved.  Baby steps.

BTW, not to hijack this post, but a quick aside related to the last student social talk...  @David @Bob @Richard L

I successfully sold my Roland. A church contacted me 10 minutes after I put it up on Craigslist and 20 minutes after the Church agreed that no, they don't want to pay 9k for a new VAD707, and directed their sound guy/drummer to look for used one. Divine intersection? 

Sorry @David I edited the post out from under you LOL.

1 hour ago, David said:

I tend to think of Leading hand and dominant hand as 2 different things and I'm trying to break the hold of my dominent hand.  I shot this earlier to try and explain what I mean, it's not great but hope it does the job lol

Will I ever finish the room... no 🤣

You illustrated exactly what I was trying to explain above. If it is logical lead with the right hand, then lead with the right. If it is logical to lead with left, do that. It took me near a year of OH for it to suddenly dawn on me that I'm not locked in, either way and my evil south paw doesn't have to matter unless I want it to.

I also consider lead and dominant separate and was trying to use them specifically to make my point that OH makes it awkward to follow a particular dominant hand but crossed over isn't a limitation on choice of lead hand either. 

11 minutes ago, Robert said:

Stephen talks about Gary Chester's book The New Breed. I've read the beginning of it and started working on some of the lessons. His ideas on splitting the kit are helpful for me. It takes some getting used to, but I like the way it's coming together.

Splitting the kit is what I do most of the time but I learned it from watching Claus Hessler and listening to some of his lessons on drumeo. The New Breed is on my to-do list, eventually. I'm working on three other books of interest at the moment. 

It is a nice way to compartmentalize what you are doing with either hand.

Ok I follow what you are saying. What side is your crash on?  My layout is the ride is directly to the left and overlapping my HH and the left hand 18 crash is in front of the HH. Then I have a 16 crash on the right side of the kit where the ride normally is.

Right after you posted I took this upstairs to the kit and played around with it. I didn't have any issues with stick crossing. The first method I used was to play it with the left hand on the HH and crash with right hand on the snare. 

Then I played it with left hand on hats and right hand on the snare on beat 2. Then a left hand drop onto the snare on beat 4 with the right hand on the right hand crash.

Method 2 works but if Method 1 is available, better to do that.

If you have no left hand crash, you have two other options. Crash the edge of the ride (tastefully), or open your hats fully and edge crash the hat on beat 4. 😁 That is what I would do in a pinch with no left hand crash.

@Eyal I don't have the second book yet, but I think you will like the first book a lot.

As for lead hand being trivial in one style or the other, I think that depends on the drummer. There's no real difference between the styles except one supports a dominant hand, and the other makes it awkward to maintain a dominant hand.

4 hours ago, Eyal said:

Who says open handed is perfect 🙂

I do! 😎 🥁✌️🏴‍☠️

In all seriousness, though. Other than dynamics independence (playing hard with one hand, soft with the other), I don't understand what you mean by 'avoid touching each other.'

2 hours ago, Eyal said:

Maybe there aren't guidelines?!

Of all the research I've done and hours of watching what other established pro OH drummers do, this question you pose seems to be the case. 

Claus Hessler, Dom Famularo and Simon Philips are the only ones I've ever seen talk extensively about OH. All three press that ambidexterity is the core of full OH. There's more to it than just uncrossing your HH hands. But I only have their word for it because the other established pro OH players like Billy C. and Lenny W. haven't ever said much about it. I've just had to observe what they are doing on stage. Everything I have seen shows they aren't bothered by handedness. 

The only self-professed OH player who still plays with a solid dominant hand is Harry Miree.  But he is the first to admit he is still very new to the concept and trying to figure things out.

I am still only brushing the surface of Claus Hessler/Dom Famularo's book about Open Handed drumming.

Best I can offer you is my own insights over the past year as I gained experience with OH:

Stage 1: (Month 1 through 4) I obsessed about my left hand being lead, because I'm a lefty. I always pushed to play fills left handed even when right handed made more sense some of the time. I actually lost sleep over the question because I obsessed the problem too much.

Stage 2: (Month 5 through 8 ) By this point I was playing fills mostly right handed, but having to paradiddle a lot to navigate myself back onto a left lead. Ok GREAT! I'm heading for the big time. 

Stage 3: (Month 9 and 10) Light bulb comes on. I am paradiddling too much. I go into a self doubt spiral about my methods and realize I've missed the point that Claus, Dom, and Simon have been trying to impress on me. There is no left hand. There is no right hand. There are only hands. I took a time out to watch videos and read more on the subject. I locate and join the Shed and find my way again.

Stage 4: (Month 11 to current) Every fill I currently use is hand picked or doctored so it can be played starting with right or left at will. Most come from @Stephen's lessons on fills that I have adapted in some way to work for me. My goal is to dictate where I land at the end of the fill. What I land on dictates what I start with. It is opening all sorts of possibilities.

Keep pushing Eyal.  You'll find what works for you.

2 minutes ago, David said:

Everyday is a school day, love it.  I really need to get into basic music theory, this is so interesting 🙂 . Claus is a musician/scientist who has so much feel.  I to love drummers with great feel for the music they play.  Mitch Mitchell played so well off Hendrix, Copeland cooks a groove so hot with interplay, Collins is an orchestra on early Genesis recordings...I still get excited when I play good times bad times and Bonham kicks in...  they fit like Ringo/Lego into the music they play.  And then there's Jazz... everything, all time all at once.

Yes, JAZZ.  Almost all these guys came from Jazz or took the time to get some Jazz under their belt, or grew up listening to jazz and big band. That swing and musicality is in their DNA.

5 hours ago, David said:

I want to break my habit of always having the same thing in both hands, next solo I post I might try that, see how brave I am 🙂 .  It doubles or triples the amount of colour/voice you have under your hands.

I look forward to seeing this 😊

4 hours ago, David said:

I agree with this, I think he linear pattern round the kit fills are really only a facility builder and in certain cases a dramatic statement in a song.  @Kirstin have you watched the KH session we had on here, it's great, link below. The video you link to is brilliant and, for me, it's more to do with his musicality than speed or facility, his phasing and the fun he is having isn't based on technical pathology but the output.  It's interesting discussing this and then watching the video and seeing how he plays... his approach is of a complete instrument, his hands build phrase and often the ostinato planned by his right hand as well as his left, it's not about patterns much more about phrases... I hope that makes sense. I am trying to do things like this in my solos which are pretty bad atm, but I'm deliberately reaching beyond my skills. 

I've also been very married to sticks and I want to break that, I love the use of the hand on the head Claus does.  I want to break my habit of always having the same thing in both hands, next solo I post I might try that, see how brave I am 🙂 .  It doubles or triples the amount of colour/voice you have under your hands.

https://www.stephensdrumshed.com/courses/qa-calls/3-8-22-qa-w-claus-hessler/

Thank you. I will watch this on my lunch break. 

Claus is where I am trying to go, to be that free and fluid with either hand. I discovered him way back at the very start, though I didn't quite take him as seriously as Simon Phillips or Carter Beauford until about 3 months into it when I discovered how much I could learn from Claus. I would love to take a few lessons with him down the road when I'm in a better position knowledge-wise to really absorb what he has to teach.
 

2 hours ago, David said:

This is brilliant and I think it might explain why Ringo fills contain natural/beautiful tension and anticipation and instead of trying to drill it out of itself he accepted it and the rest is history.  He is a phrase-god 🙂  TY @Kirstin

Ringo is definitely the center of my heart and I wish I had an ounce of his feels when it comes to how he performs fills and builds tension. I want to be a Claus/Ringo love child hahaha. I like all the drummers who are more on feels than technicality, who sit in the music and build phrases that are as much a part of the music as they are the rhythm.

Even though Ringo plays rock, he treats it more like a classical movement, and he definitely treats his drums as a tonal instrument by tuning them to whatever key the song is in. If you haven't noticed his tuning, one or more of his drums will be tuned to the dominant, another the tonic, another the subdominant, etc., etc. until his kit becomes almost a chord.  I think one of the coolest compliments I've ever heard of him is, "he was the first drummer to make the drums sing."

15 hours ago, Eyal said:

Though when the fill started on the downbeat somehow my left hand want to lead.

 

For example:

1  &  2  &  3  &  4  -  & a

  G   r   o  o  v  e   -  Fill

I assume it happens because the left hand wants to continue its motion on 8th notes.

 

You know what? I think I just figured out what you are talking about. and this is my last response tonight because I'm about to away with me to bed for some well earned ZzzZ.

If I am guessing correctly, you are referring to what I call the Ringo Problem to amuse myself. He's a lefty on a righty layout who leads with his left hand on nearly every fill he initiates with his rack tom. I see him get in there with his right hand once in a while, but in his youth he was definitely strongly left hand lead. 

There's always a delay going into his fills that is part of his signature sound. He says that delay is there because he needs that half beat to get his right arm out of his way so that he can initiate the fill with his left. 

I'm not so sure it is exclusively a problem for someone like him who plays crossed over. I have noticed that when I come off the HH with my left hand, I sometimes have that delay and sometimes I don't. I guess next time I am on I will take a hard look at what I am doing that results in a missed half beat or no missed beat. I'll get back to you.  Ni ni. 

P.S. I should also mention, and I also think I said this before, I don't like the old fashioned linear around the kit fills. I like staggered fills that dance around the kit with a lot of single sticking, and back beat fills that also use a lot of single sticking. Which are a whole lot easier to adapt to using either hand. So I can't say as I have come up against the problems you are having. And I think by the time I do push myself into learning those linear types of fills, I'll have enough facility with the right hand that they won't be any issue.

Also watch this guy.  He's my number one guiding force in methodology, because he has so many videos where you can clearly see what he is doing.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y9Vk7VeSog 

 

3 hours ago, Eyal said:

@Kirstin I assume you have some brilliant ideas for this case as well 😉

Haha. Lets not get hasty. I think I actually have less time on the kit than you hehe. I'm new enough that I don't know what you mean with your question. I'm also new enough to probably fail at explaining how I do things. I also can't play doubles yet. I have a lot else to learn first.

I think part of it is that you and I are coming at this from two completely different mindsets. I guess since I started with my left hand on the HH from day one, I've had time to get this questioning Right Hand/ Left Hand, Left hand/Right Hand out of my system. I realized one day that I was spending more time agonizing over which hand to use than I was putting into playing!

After that I went all Buddhist and spiritual about it and like the little bald Matrix kid I said, "There is no spoon." Meaning, I have no left hand or right hand. I only have success or less success. I KNOW.  I'm a weirdo!

I guess if you want a window into my madness, I look at it like this:  I play. I have a particular layout. I have divisions in time. At any given moment in time, it's the free hand that leads and it matters not to me if it is the right hand or the left hand. It stops being a problem and becomes a creative opportunity. Everything I learn with a right hand lead I also teach myself with a left hand lead because you get two slightly different stylistic results that way. 

Also, I do what @David so wisely mentioned.  I break everything into small chunks. I take small, two measure snippets of fills and experiment with them. Take the Pat Boone Debbie Boone fill, for example. It is small and staggered and can be played on whatever collection of voices you want.  Change it up. Add to it. Only use the Pat Boon half. Then only use the Debbie Boone half. 

Now, here's the fun bit if you want to take me up on this challenge. Perform the Pat Boone Debbie Boone in whatever variation of your choosing that I mentioned above. Practice it with a right hand lead coming out of the groove. Then practice it with a left hand lead. Note that they are naturally a bit different. Now you have two slight variations of the same fill. Practice until you can willingly choose a right or left lead comfortably.

End goal is to formulate a slightly different set of voices for each Pat Boone Debbie Boone that fit specifically with the left hand lead.  Then do it again for the right hand lead. Just with all the variations you can do with the Pat Boone Debbie Boone you have hours of fun adapting them both ways. 

I really don't have any other way to explain how I am doing what I do. I lack the vocabulary as yet.  

2 hours ago, Eyal said:

This is much above my current skill 🙂

I have started learning the push / pull a week ago.

My left hand (my strong hand) is ok only on german grip but only on 80bpm 8th notes, I still did not get the motion of the french grip.

My right hand is still stuggling with keeping the fulcrum steady. My thumb is too loose and I do not see improvement.

Playing doubles is a dream.

I play mostly german/american position, and only just now trying to get a handle on french. My doubles are a complete laugh. Paradidles is about the only thing I've gotten a decent handle on but with limited scope. I will say, I love Moeller. 

39 minutes ago, Eyal said:

It definitely is

Here's my full hand twister. It's only this screwed up because I have my rack toms reversed and I tend to start fills left handed or reach for the first tom left handed (or maybe I'm not right in the head). IF I get up to a 16th note run, I go: Snare LRLR or RLRR > 10" LRLR > 12" LRLL > Floor Tom RLRR > left crash/HH/left ride.  

I know you asked Stephen about this but there are two solutions I use. 

1. Crash with the free hand.

2. Paradiddle on the last drum to free up the hand I want to use. RLRR. This is the method I naturally tend to use and love it because my left hand is already in transit to the crash before I've finished the RR. It was a happy accident that started one day and I thought it so brilliant I worked at it until it is almost instinctual now.

I've not paid a lot of attention to Zak Starkey as I'am not an avid The Who or The Offspring listener. I've seen him in the past playing a standard setup but a more recent clip I just watched shows that he's moved his HH over to the right side of his kit. I haven't gotten a good view of what else might be going on with his setup but he's apparently moved to a variation of OH playing. 

18 hours ago, Eyal said:

Today I had a very unique practice session.

For 2 hours I put the click on 60bpm (8th notes) and did not stop it.

For 20 minutes - I played a simple 8th notes groove of

* Bass drum on 1, 3, & of 3

* Open the HH on the & of 4

* Crash on 1

Then for 10 minutes - finger control exercises on both german and french grips.

Then again 20 minutes of the same groove and so on.

 

During these boring loops I found some things:

1 . I need to think again before opening the HH and before closing it.

2 . My right leg is weak and still does not know what's best for it (heel up or heel down).

3 . My right hand suddenly hit the snare differently.

I figured out that now it leans on my right leg 🙂. This is a new privilege 🤣.

Before the change, my right hand also played the snare though it could not lean on my right leg which was resposible for the HH control pedal.

Now my right hand is more calm and hits the snare more gently and remains close to it (waiting the future ghost note).

 

I have started the BT on April (stopped at lesson 20 - before doing this change).

My original plan was doing it all over again after completing it.

Well, I restarted it already and it feels like it is going to be way more thorough than just a second time 🐢

 

@Eyal Do you feel like things are starting to improve at this point? Hands and feet growing more accustomed to the new style and layout?

Regarding that drumming example video I posted for you, I've currently set myself two challenges, though not at the same time.

Challenge 1.  Now that I have a pattern of voices that supports OH playing, I now need to play it proficiently the way @Stephen does in his video to gain all the benefits. Meaning no gaps between while adding voices. His instruction is a timing exercise as much as it is about adding voices. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv3f1Emdn2w&t=16s This will take slowing way down and I'll need to change my rule from beat 3 to beat 1. Otherwise, the voices on grid and off grid should stay the same. 

Challenge 2. Come off the hats and play the left crash/Ride with my left hand instead of the right. Again, since Stephen is coming off the HH with his right hand, I should also challenge myself to take my left hand off the hats and play another voice. One I get that, I may continue and add the left Tom to left hand.

I let you know how THAT goes, maybe in a month or two. 😰  

4 hours ago, David said:

The alternative is to get a good quality cable HH and mount it where you like at the height you want. 

One that I am now considering because I cannot find anyone who can give me length dimensions on the Luddy Atlas Pro HH stand I covet. I really don't want to buy schmancy and then take a hacksaw to it. (ok for real I have proper tools like a pipe cutter for this). 

A lot of open handers modify their stands to get them lower.  One of mine I had to pull the top tube out and gently saw about an inch off. Have to be careful because it is easy to compress the tube out of round and then you can't get it back together.
 

I usually like my HH edge to sit about a cm above the top of the snare hoop. I had to raise the stand up with the new VH-14D. The anti rotation collar extends below the hats and bumps up against the lower tube. So I have it as low as it can go with this particular stand.

Here is a picture of my VH-14D in profile for your research purposes. It's not thinner but is made of two pieces and is 14" in diameter. You can see the anti rotation collar in this picture as well.